Ever wondered if you're actually a leader, or just someone with a fancy title? Gary sits down with Chris Cooper, author of Elegant Leadership, to unpack what leadership really means - and why "elegant" isn't just a fashion word. They natter about humour, courage, forgiveness (yes, forgiveness), and whether Jacinda Ardern counts as an elegant leader (spoiler: it depends who you ask).

From leadership at home with the kids to knowing when it's time to gracefully exit stage left, Chris walks Gary through his A-to-Z of leadership traits - love, laughter, letting go, and a surprising amount of grace. Oh, and there's a poem about smiling that'll get you right in the feels. Stick around for Gary's final, deadly serious question: how do you actually know if you're meant to lead?

Tune into A Very Tall Man from Midnight - 6:00am on the Rhema Media App.

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