Ever wondered who actually brought MMP to New Zealand? Meet Hans Gruber - born in Germany near the end of WWII, lawyer, world traveller, and the bloke with a big hand in giving us the voting system we've got today. Gary sits down with him to unpack MMP versus first-past-the-post, and Hans doesn't hold back on democracy itself (spoiler: he reckons leaving big decisions to "unqualified" voters is a bit mad, and has a few things to say about China's meritocracy too).

The chat gets heavier from there - world wars, Ukraine, Gaza, and Hans's genuine fear of where global tensions are heading, plus his "dying wish" that New Zealand goes fully neutral and stays out of it all. It ends on a softer note, with Hans reflecting on 40 years in New Zealand, no regrets despite the rocky patches, and what it feels like to hear a national anthem that actually moves you to tears.

Tune into A Very Tall Man from Midnight - 6:00am on the Rhema Media App.

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